Discussion:
warmth and midrange of Scheops/Neumann vs. "pull" and intelligibility of MKH 50/60's
(too old to reply)
Basenji Boy
2008-06-04 01:48:46 UTC
Permalink
I recently added a Sennheiser MKH-50 to complement my Sennheiser 60. I
wanted to graduate to a dedicated boom mic for interior dialog/
interviews and wanted to relegate the 60 for outdoor work. I just did
two days of interior interviews with the 50, and while I like it, I
don't love it.

I do a wide mix of "lifestyle" shows, long-form network and
independent docs, EPK, commercial spots shot on film or video, and
corporate marketing pieces. I've had an MKH-60 for over 15 years and
never had a single problem with it on any location I've been on, which
ranges from winters in Minneapolis at -15F to 100F sweltering
humidity in the Bahamas, so I appreciate the ruggedness and
reliablility of the Sennheiser MKH mics.

The MKH-50 does seem to have a scooped response with boosted bass and
treble. I do value the "pull" and intelligibility it has, but as
others have noted, the pull is chiefly derived from the bass response
of the mic. In real world of the locations I shoot in I am going to be
using at least the 50mHz on-mic cut if not more just to deal with AC
and other ambiance. I also don't see a need to record the very lower
freq's of my talent's voices. There's not much below 70Hz that I want
to record.

The intelligibility seems to come from the boosted treble response. It
doesn't sound particularly "natural" to me. There's a large range of
response in the midrange that seems to be missing. When I listen to my
tracks on a studio monitor I hear two seemingly separate signals: a
bassy track and a treble track of the same voice.There's not enough
middle range to please me. But, the editors have a clearly
intelligible track with definition and punch that cuts right through
the ambiance.

As I get older I think I'm yearning for the smooth midrange response
and warmth of the Scheops CMC641/Cut 1 and Neumann KMR81i. I've used a
Scheops less than a handful of times, but was quite impressed with its
"natural"-ness. What I heard with my own ears seemed to be the same
thing that the Scheops put on tape.

I also spent several months booming an 81i back in the day cutting my
teeth on a film project and loved this mic's response as well. I think
the realism of these mics is really calling to me in the sense of
bringing back the sound as my ears hear it.

I don't think I can quite swing an outright purchase of both a Scheops
and a Neumann right now, as I've just purchased a boat load of other
gear, but has anyone else been in this situation, using mics that are
real-world performers but seem to lack some of the natural sound and
warmth of other mics? What were your decisions?
s***@gmail.com
2008-06-04 02:51:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Basenji Boy
I recently added a Sennheiser MKH-50 to complement my Sennheiser 60. I
wanted to graduate to a dedicated boom mic for interior dialog/
interviews and wanted to relegate the 60 for outdoor work. I just did
two days of interior interviews with the 50, and while I like it, I
don't love it.
I do a wide mix of "lifestyle" shows, long-form network and
independent docs, EPK, commercial spots shot on film or video, and
corporate marketing pieces. I've had an MKH-60 for over 15 years and
never had a single problem with it on any location I've been on, which
ranges from winters in Minneapolis at -15F to   100F sweltering
humidity in the Bahamas, so I appreciate the ruggedness and
reliablility of the Sennheiser MKH mics.
The MKH-50 does seem to have a scooped response with boosted bass and
treble. I do value the "pull"  and intelligibility it has, but as
others have noted, the pull is chiefly derived from the bass response
of the mic. In real world of the locations I shoot in I am going to be
using at least the 50mHz on-mic cut if not more just to deal with AC
and other ambiance. I also don't see a need to record the very lower
freq's of my talent's voices. There's not much below 70Hz that I want
to record.
The intelligibility seems to come from the boosted treble response. It
doesn't sound particularly "natural" to me. There's a large range of
response in the midrange that seems to be missing. When I listen to my
tracks on a studio monitor I hear two seemingly separate signals: a
bassy track and a treble track of the same voice.There's not enough
middle range to please me. But, the editors have a clearly
intelligible track with definition and punch that cuts right through
the ambiance.
As I get older I think I'm yearning for the smooth midrange response
and warmth of the Scheops CMC641/Cut 1 and Neumann KMR81i. I've used a
Scheops less than a handful of times, but was quite impressed with its
"natural"-ness. What I heard with my own ears seemed to be the same
thing that the Scheops put on tape.
I also spent several months booming an 81i back in the day cutting my
teeth on a film project and loved this mic's response as well. I think
the realism of these mics is really calling to me in the sense of
bringing back the sound as my ears hear it.
I don't think I can quite swing an outright purchase of both a Scheops
and a Neumann right now, as I've just purchased a boat load of other
gear, but has anyone else been in this situation, using mics that are
real-world performers but seem to lack some of the natural sound and
warmth of other mics? What were your decisions?
The Senn 50 is my favorite. True that it does have a bit more
"personality" than the Schoeps. As you said the editors love the
tracks from the 50. Whatever you think is lacking from the 50 is more
than made up for by it's almost bullet proof performance and a little
judicious LF EQ tweaking makes it a winner in my book.


Eric
m***@gmail.com
2008-06-04 06:52:54 UTC
Permalink
I've, fairly consistently, used the 60 ext and the 50 int, and I'm
extremely happy with the 50 - although I do mainly drama's so don't
encounter the need to cut as much, leaving it pretty flat across the
board. The schoeps sound that little bit better, but is less rugged
than the 50, and hates any kind of moister in the air - plus, just
from the complimentary point of view, keeping all the mics as
sennheisers seems to work well.
m***@gmail.com
2008-06-04 07:08:29 UTC
Permalink
sorry, MOISTURE, not moister...
Ty Ford
2008-06-04 12:49:34 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 02:52:54 -0400, ***@gmail.com wrote
(in article
Post by m***@gmail.com
I've, fairly consistently, used the 60 ext and the 50 int, and I'm
extremely happy with the 50 - although I do mainly drama's so don't
encounter the need to cut as much, leaving it pretty flat across the
board. The schoeps sound that little bit better, but is less rugged
than the 50, and hates any kind of moister in the air - plus, just
from the complimentary point of view, keeping all the mics as
sennheisers seems to work well.
MP,

In the ten years I've used my Schoeps cmc641. I have had three occasions in
which I needed to clean the connections between the body and capsule due to
moisturized shmutz on the connections. While the mid-atlantic US only
qualifies for rain-forest climate classification in July and August, I think
"hates any kind of moisture" is an overstatement.

Regards,

Ty Ford


--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar http://youtu.be/4RZJ9MptZmU
qdbsound
2008-06-04 08:54:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Basenji Boy
I recently added a Sennheiser MKH-50 to complement my Sennheiser 60. I
wanted to graduate to a dedicated boom mic for interior dialog/
interviews and wanted to relegate the 60 for outdoor work. I just did
two days of interior interviews with the 50, and while I like it, I
don't love it.
I do a wide mix of "lifestyle" shows, long-form network and
independent docs, EPK, commercial spots shot on film or video, and
corporate marketing pieces. I've had an MKH-60 for over 15 years and
never had a single problem with it on any location I've been on, which
ranges from winters in Minneapolis at -15F to   100F sweltering
humidity in the Bahamas, so I appreciate the ruggedness and
reliablility of the Sennheiser MKH mics.
The MKH-50 does seem to have a scooped response with boosted bass and
treble. I do value the "pull"  and intelligibility it has, but as
others have noted, the pull is chiefly derived from the bass response
of the mic. In real world of the locations I shoot in I am going to be
using at least the 50mHz on-mic cut if not more just to deal with AC
and other ambiance. I also don't see a need to record the very lower
freq's of my talent's voices. There's not much below 70Hz that I want
to record.
The intelligibility seems to come from the boosted treble response. It
doesn't sound particularly "natural" to me. There's a large range of
response in the midrange that seems to be missing. When I listen to my
tracks on a studio monitor I hear two seemingly separate signals: a
bassy track and a treble track of the same voice.There's not enough
middle range to please me. But, the editors have a clearly
intelligible track with definition and punch that cuts right through
the ambiance.
As I get older I think I'm yearning for the smooth midrange response
and warmth of the Scheops CMC641/Cut 1 and Neumann KMR81i. I've used a
Scheops less than a handful of times, but was quite impressed with its
"natural"-ness. What I heard with my own ears seemed to be the same
thing that the Scheops put on tape.
I also spent several months booming an 81i back in the day cutting my
teeth on a film project and loved this mic's response as well. I think
I concur 100% . I use 641's 81's and 82's .and just sold my last mkh70
the other day as it was gathering alot of dust. Neumans are forgiving
and schoeps tell the truth . the 70 is to bloody big . I never had
416 and dont think I will.
N


the realism of these mics is really calling to me in the sense of
Post by Basenji Boy
bringing back the sound as my ears hear it.
I don't think I can quite swing an outright purchase of both a Scheops
and a Neumann right now, as I've just purchased a boat load of other
gear, but has anyone else been in this situation, using mics that are
real-world performers but seem to lack some of the natural sound and
warmth of other mics? What were your decisions?
Ty Ford
2008-06-04 12:43:55 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 21:48:46 -0400, Basenji Boy wrote
(in article
Post by Basenji Boy
I don't think I can quite swing an outright purchase of both a Scheops
and a Neumann right now, as I've just purchased a boat load of other
gear, but has anyone else been in this situation, using mics that are
real-world performers but seem to lack some of the natural sound and
warmth of other mics? What were your decisions?
Hello BB,

When you get into the gray area, things get a little spooky.

At the moment my only Sennheiser boom mics are a 416 and an 816, so I can't
respond directly. I have had people who have used 50s and 60s call them
"sterile" while others say they are "very clean" and certainly very quiet.

If you're just hearing the production audio and not the finished product,
something as simple as different preamps or headphones can alter your
perception.

BTW, Schoeps also makes a shotgun, the CMIT, that matches very nicely with
the cmc641.

Regards,

Ty Ford

--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar

Jason
2008-06-04 21:37:32 UTC
Permalink
I wanted to graduate to a dedicated boom mic for interior dialog/interviews
Hi there,

For what it's worth - seeing as you said you were looking for a boom
mic for interior dialogue & interviews - I've been very pleased with
the results of my Neumann KM185 hypercardioid condenser. It has a
gentle roll-off below 500Hz & slight boost from 5kHz upwards, max-ing
at 3dB at 10kHz, so sounds pretty flat with a foam teardrop. HF self-
noise levels are low too, noticeably quieter than my Sennheiser 416.
Used with a small mount like Rycote's Invision INV7, it's also very
light at the end of a pole. At around $900, it also represents a
reasonable saving over some of the other mics mentioned here too.

http://www.neumann.com/?lang=en&id=current_microphones&cid=km180_description

Best regards,

Jason

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