Discussion:
anyone make a 3.2ms delay capsule?
(too old to reply)
Jay Hartigan
2005-01-13 22:48:12 UTC
Permalink
I love my Lectro 400s but I'm still fighting the delay when mixing hard
wires and wireless, or my Lectro 200s and 400s. When I'm using a larger
mixer I can delay the hard wire source 3.2ms and everything lines up just
fine.

I'd love to find a XLR capsule that will delay the source 3.2ms inline.
Anyone make such a thing? It seems that Lectrosonics should make it as a
companion to the Lectro series. Larry?

Jay Hartigan
g***@zaxcom.com
2005-01-14 00:28:21 UTC
Permalink
The Deva IV and V have a delay on each input to make up for the Delay
of any wireless system. It is not very cost effective to do it with a
seperate box.

Glenn
Jay Hartigan
2005-01-14 02:28:18 UTC
Permalink
I wish my Sound Devices 442 had a 3.2ms delay switch on each input.
Peter
2005-01-14 03:18:35 UTC
Permalink
Just keep your boom mike exactly 3.2 feet away.
Peter
Post by Jay Hartigan
I wish my Sound Devices 442 had a 3.2ms delay switch on each input.
Glen Trew
2005-01-14 05:08:27 UTC
Permalink
But that assumes the boom is pointing at the same person wiring the wireless
w/delay.

gt
Post by Peter
Just keep your boom mike exactly 3.2 feet away.
Peter
Post by Jay Hartigan
I wish my Sound Devices 442 had a 3.2ms delay switch on each input.
Glen Trew
2005-01-15 04:18:13 UTC
Permalink
"wiring" was meant to be "wearing"

gt
Post by Glen Trew
But that assumes the boom is pointing at the same person wiring the wireless
w/delay.
gt
Post by Peter
Just keep your boom mike exactly 3.2 feet away.
Peter
Post by Jay Hartigan
I wish my Sound Devices 442 had a 3.2ms delay switch on each input.
Jay Hartigan
2005-01-14 11:44:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter
Just keep your boom mike exactly 3.2 feet away.
Peter
Wouldn't it be nice if it were just that simple.

Jay
Karl Winkler
2005-01-14 15:59:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jay Hartigan
I love my Lectro 400s but I'm still fighting the delay when mixing hard
wires and wireless, or my Lectro 200s and 400s. When I'm using a larger
mixer I can delay the hard wire source 3.2ms and everything lines up just
fine.
I'd love to find a XLR capsule that will delay the source 3.2ms inline.
Anyone make such a thing? It seems that Lectrosonics should make it as a
companion to the Lectro series. Larry?
Jay Hartigan
There is a unit made by Sabine (model SDA-102), with an MSRP of $424 (I
know, not cheap) offering delay in 20uS increments starting at 90uS.
It's pretty small, but it's not an in-line XLR unit, unfortunately.

I'll speak with Larry about doing something in an XLR barrel.
Karl Winkler
Lectrosonics, Inc.
http://www.lectrosonics.com
wyatt
2005-01-14 18:38:32 UTC
Permalink
They really should work this issue out. Especially considering the
(what i assume to be a market test) price increase on 211's. I myself
am in the market for some new toys. I love the features on the 411's,
but that damn delay kills me. I just dont know that they are quite
there yet.
...Or how's this one... a firmware update on the 211's which adds some
of the conveniences off the 411's?
My point is, I loved the 411's until i was stuck with a mixed bag
(analog and digital recievers). or even worse, one of each as cam hops.
On a short turn-around. not very articulate today. wyatt.
Larry Fisher
2005-01-14 21:04:33 UTC
Permalink
The Venue receiver puts in additional delay for analog transmitters so
that the total 200 transmitter and 400 transmitter delays are the
same. This doesn't help bag systems, of course.

We are working on a inline negative 3.2 ms delay module to remove the
delay from a 400 system. It should be ready on April 1. Some wag
suggested that we hook a bunch of them in series and move the release
date up a month or so but that, of course is totally ridiculous.

Larry F
Lectro

p.s. Overall we actually had a small price decrease, since the price
increase on the 200 system was more than matched by the price decrease
on the 400 system. As users shift from one system (200) to the other
(400), our cost of manufacturing changes also.
Post by wyatt
They really should work this issue out. Especially considering the
(what i assume to be a market test) price increase on 211's. I myself
am in the market for some new toys. I love the features on the 411's,
but that damn delay kills me. I just dont know that they are quite
there yet.
...Or how's this one... a firmware update on the 211's which adds some
of the conveniences off the 411's?
My point is, I loved the 411's until i was stuck with a mixed bag
(analog and digital recievers). or even worse, one of each as cam hops.
On a short turn-around. not very articulate today. wyatt.
G. John Garrett, C.A.S
2005-01-14 21:57:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Fisher
The Venue receiver puts in additional delay for analog transmitters so
that the total 200 transmitter and 400 transmitter delays are the
same. This doesn't help bag systems, of course.
We are working on a inline negative 3.2 ms delay module to remove the
delay from a 400 system. It should be ready on April 1. Some wag
suggested that we hook a bunch of them in series and move the release
date up a month or so but that, of course is totally ridiculous.
So if you put this module in an analog reciever it would spit out audio 3.2ms
before it was spoken? Interestin...

John
Jay Farrington San Francisco
2005-01-14 22:44:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by G. John Garrett, C.A.S
Post by Larry Fisher
We are working on a inline negative 3.2 ms delay module to remove the
delay from a 400 system. It should be ready on April 1. Some wag
suggested that we hook a bunch of them in series and move the release
date up a month or so but that, of course is totally ridiculous.
So if you put this module in an analog reciever it would spit out audio 3.2ms
before it was spoken? Interestin...
John
Hey, what the hell's going on? I got this thread already 3.2 days ago
. . .

-Jay "hates delays" Farrington
G. John Garrett, C.A.S
2005-01-15 03:46:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Fisher
Post by G. John Garrett, C.A.S
Post by Larry Fisher
We are working on a inline negative 3.2 ms delay module to remove
the
Post by G. John Garrett, C.A.S
Post by Larry Fisher
delay from a 400 system. It should be ready on April 1. Some wag
suggested that we hook a bunch of them in series and move the
release
Post by G. John Garrett, C.A.S
Post by Larry Fisher
date up a month or so but that, of course is totally ridiculous.
So if you put this module in an analog reciever it would spit out
audio 3.2ms
Post by G. John Garrett, C.A.S
before it was spoken? Interestin...
John
Hey, what the hell's going on? I got this thread already 3.2 days ago
. . .
-Jay "hates delays" Farrington
Responses like yours are what prompted me to write the question!
John
Glen Trew
2005-01-15 04:28:47 UTC
Permalink
If the delay was increased just a little bit, it would more closely match
the distance of most boom work. Just a little more delay, and you'll have it
right.

What? You guys like the comb filtering (phasing) when mixing analog wireless
and boom? That's probably the only quality issue even Producers can actually
notice enough to complain about (allows them to feel like part of the crew).
Lavs with 3ms delay usually improve the problem.

It is possible that latency can be a problem, but it's just as often that it
can improve an age old problem.

gt
Post by G. John Garrett, C.A.S
Post by Larry Fisher
Post by G. John Garrett, C.A.S
Post by Larry Fisher
We are working on a inline negative 3.2 ms delay module to remove
the
Post by G. John Garrett, C.A.S
Post by Larry Fisher
delay from a 400 system. It should be ready on April 1. Some wag
suggested that we hook a bunch of them in series and move the
release
Post by G. John Garrett, C.A.S
Post by Larry Fisher
date up a month or so but that, of course is totally ridiculous.
So if you put this module in an analog reciever it would spit out
audio 3.2ms
Post by G. John Garrett, C.A.S
before it was spoken? Interestin...
John
Hey, what the hell's going on? I got this thread already 3.2 days ago
. . .
-Jay "hates delays" Farrington
Responses like yours are what prompted me to write the question!
John
Douglas Tourtelot
2005-01-15 05:19:19 UTC
Permalink
Glen-

Still can't figure out why anyone would want to point a boom mic at someone
wearing an open lav. Never found any reason to do that in 25 years!

D.
--
Douglas Tourtelot, CAS
Seattle, WA
Post by Glen Trew
If the delay was increased just a little bit, it would more closely match
the distance of most boom work. Just a little more delay, and you'll have it
right.
What? You guys like the comb filtering (phasing) when mixing analog wireless
and boom? That's probably the only quality issue even Producers can actually
notice enough to complain about (allows them to feel like part of the crew).
Lavs with 3ms delay usually improve the problem.
It is possible that latency can be a problem, but it's just as often that it
can improve an age old problem.
gt
Post by G. John Garrett, C.A.S
Post by Larry Fisher
Post by G. John Garrett, C.A.S
Post by Larry Fisher
We are working on a inline negative 3.2 ms delay module to remove
the
Post by G. John Garrett, C.A.S
Post by Larry Fisher
delay from a 400 system. It should be ready on April 1. Some wag
suggested that we hook a bunch of them in series and move the
release
Post by G. John Garrett, C.A.S
Post by Larry Fisher
date up a month or so but that, of course is totally ridiculous.
So if you put this module in an analog reciever it would spit out
audio 3.2ms
Post by G. John Garrett, C.A.S
before it was spoken? Interestin...
John
Hey, what the hell's going on? I got this thread already 3.2 days ago
. . .
-Jay "hates delays" Farrington
Responses like yours are what prompted me to write the question!
John
G. John Garrett, C.A.S
2005-01-15 16:14:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Glen Trew
If the delay was increased just a little bit, it would more closely match
the distance of most boom work. Just a little more delay, and you'll have it
right.
What? You guys like the comb filtering (phasing) when mixing analog wireless
and boom? That's probably the only quality issue even Producers can actually
notice enough to complain about (allows them to feel like part of the crew).
Lavs with 3ms delay usually improve the problem.
It is possible that latency can be a problem, but it's just as often that it
can improve an age old problem.
gt
And plenty of people make stand-alone delay, if you really want it. But you
already read this post.

John
Darrell Henke
2005-01-15 04:29:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Fisher
We are working on a inline negative 3.2 ms delay module to remove the
delay from a 400 system. It should be ready on April 1. Some wag
suggested that we hook a bunch of them in series and move the release
date up a month or so but that, of course is totally ridiculous.
Very funny. It's all fun and games until a take sounds like Darth Vader.

I am prepping a show with 13 or 14 RF mics from a rental company with a mix
of 411's and 211's with lavs and a RF hand held. The 24 input Midas mixer
will not have delays.

I have asked Lectro for a mic power supply or preamp with this feature. Any
delay will have to pass phantom anyway. If Lectro doesn't step up, how about
Remote Audio, SD, or PSC?


Now to vent. Delays in the video world. The following is what video
facilities have to put up with. This from an actual email to editors.


Here are the findings on audio delay through the HD Production Equipment.

From VC-13 to ANY ANALOG deck, the audio is delayed by 1 frame in reference
to the video. That means, composite video and analog audio are out of sync
by 1 frame. Video leading audio.

All VIDEO through the HD switcher that is downconverted to analog is delayed
by 4 frames. The settings on the Rane audio delays therefore should remain
at 4 frames.

There is no delay on the switcher downconverted DIGITAL signal, it's already
embedded at that point, so it stays in sync.

Video through the upconverter is delayed by 2 frames. The Rane delay unit
for the upconverter is in the audio room, however the audio operator patches
it to his monitors to eliminate intercom delay in the audio control room. We
should install one in the on-line room to handle upconverting needs.

Video through the DVE is also delayed by 1 frame.
So, playing back an SP or Digi beta tape in VC-13 then blown up through the
DVE and recorded to any digital deck will need a 1 frame audio delay to stay
in sync.

In a nutshell, with the current Rane setting of 4 frames, all audio paths
are in sync.
The only paths to watch out for are these.

From VC-13 to any composite input (Audio delayed 1 frame)
Video through DVE delayed by 1 frame.
Video through the upconverter, delayed by 2 frames.

Please let me know if you notice any lipsync problems from this point on.

Darrell
Douglas Tourtelot
2005-01-15 05:17:38 UTC
Permalink
Good reason to shoot on film, right?

D.
Post by Darrell Henke
Post by Larry Fisher
We are working on a inline negative 3.2 ms delay module to remove the
delay from a 400 system. It should be ready on April 1. Some wag
suggested that we hook a bunch of them in series and move the release
date up a month or so but that, of course is totally ridiculous.
Very funny. It's all fun and games until a take sounds like Darth Vader.
I am prepping a show with 13 or 14 RF mics from a rental company with a mix
of 411's and 211's with lavs and a RF hand held. The 24 input Midas mixer
will not have delays.
I have asked Lectro for a mic power supply or preamp with this feature. Any
delay will have to pass phantom anyway. If Lectro doesn't step up, how about
Remote Audio, SD, or PSC?
Now to vent. Delays in the video world. The following is what video
facilities have to put up with. This from an actual email to editors.
Here are the findings on audio delay through the HD Production Equipment.
From VC-13 to ANY ANALOG deck, the audio is delayed by 1 frame in reference
to the video. That means, composite video and analog audio are out of sync
by 1 frame. Video leading audio.
All VIDEO through the HD switcher that is downconverted to analog is delayed
by 4 frames. The settings on the Rane audio delays therefore should remain
at 4 frames.
There is no delay on the switcher downconverted DIGITAL signal, it's already
embedded at that point, so it stays in sync.
Video through the upconverter is delayed by 2 frames. The Rane delay unit
for the upconverter is in the audio room, however the audio operator patches
it to his monitors to eliminate intercom delay in the audio control room. We
should install one in the on-line room to handle upconverting needs.
Video through the DVE is also delayed by 1 frame.
So, playing back an SP or Digi beta tape in VC-13 then blown up through the
DVE and recorded to any digital deck will need a 1 frame audio delay to stay
in sync.
In a nutshell, with the current Rane setting of 4 frames, all audio paths
are in sync.
The only paths to watch out for are these.
From VC-13 to any composite input (Audio delayed 1 frame)
Video through DVE delayed by 1 frame.
Video through the upconverter, delayed by 2 frames.
Please let me know if you notice any lipsync problems from this point on.
Darrell
g***@zaxcom.com
2005-01-15 15:05:45 UTC
Permalink
I don't know if this will help you Darrell, but we are now delivering
Deva Software with 4 slide faders on the touch screen. This allows for
real time pre-fader/post fader mixing of the 8 analog inputs of Deva.
All inputs with separate delay adjustments. Maybe 2 Devas could record
your show. Up to 16 channels could be recorded this way using 2 Deva
IVs. The 2 units can be locked together if necessary.


Glenn
Kurt Albershardt
2005-01-15 17:55:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Darrell Henke
I am prepping a show with 13 or 14 RF mics from a rental company with a mix
of 411's and 211's with lavs and a RF hand held. The 24 input Midas mixer
will not have delays.
I have asked Lectro for a mic power supply or preamp with this feature. Any
delay will have to pass phantom anyway.
No digital delay is goig to "pass phantom." It's either going to have to have its own mic preamp and phantom power (haven't seen one of those yet) or be used on the channel insert of the Midas.

You could use one of the Lectro DM units (which I notice do have mic preamps in them, though I'd hate to lose the Midas preamps if it were me mixing.)
<http://lectrosonics.com/lecnet/lecnet2.htm>
Jay Hartigan
2005-01-15 20:59:01 UTC
Permalink
What I've been doing when mixing 400s and 200s is use the 400 transmitters
in the 200 compatability mode. Most of the 400 delay occurs in the transmit
stage so if you use the 200 mode you'll have success.

Jay
Jay Rose CAS
2005-01-15 21:40:04 UTC
Permalink
No problem. Shoot on a DVX100 in 24p mode. Pix will be a frame and a half
ahead of audio... by the time you figure all the random audio delays,
things might be close... sort of...
--
Correct address is spell out the letter j, AT dplaydahtcom
Clio- and Emmy-winning sound design
Learn audio for video at www.dplay.com
Brad Harper
2005-01-19 02:51:47 UTC
Permalink
Darrell,

You can add to that the different delays when I get the signal at my house
from Dish and off air. Each have a different delay. Fortunatly, my Samsung
DLP and upconverting DVD have provisions for this. The audio leads the video
off air and sat. but by different amounts. Nothing will drive you crazy like
hearing it before you see it. I have to set the sound delay in the DLP for a
compromise between off air and sat, and then compensate for this delay with
the DVD.

Brad Harper
Post by Darrell Henke
Post by Larry Fisher
We are working on a inline negative 3.2 ms delay module to remove the
delay from a 400 system. It should be ready on April 1. Some wag
suggested that we hook a bunch of them in series and move the release
date up a month or so but that, of course is totally ridiculous.
Very funny. It's all fun and games until a take sounds like Darth Vader.
I am prepping a show with 13 or 14 RF mics from a rental company with a mix
of 411's and 211's with lavs and a RF hand held. The 24 input Midas mixer
will not have delays.
I have asked Lectro for a mic power supply or preamp with this feature. Any
delay will have to pass phantom anyway. If Lectro doesn't step up, how about
Remote Audio, SD, or PSC?
Now to vent. Delays in the video world. The following is what video
facilities have to put up with. This from an actual email to editors.
Here are the findings on audio delay through the HD Production Equipment.
From VC-13 to ANY ANALOG deck, the audio is delayed by 1 frame in reference
to the video. That means, composite video and analog audio are out of sync
by 1 frame. Video leading audio.
All VIDEO through the HD switcher that is downconverted to analog is delayed
by 4 frames. The settings on the Rane audio delays therefore should remain
at 4 frames.
There is no delay on the switcher downconverted DIGITAL signal, it's already
embedded at that point, so it stays in sync.
Video through the upconverter is delayed by 2 frames. The Rane delay unit
for the upconverter is in the audio room, however the audio operator patches
it to his monitors to eliminate intercom delay in the audio control room. We
should install one in the on-line room to handle upconverting needs.
Video through the DVE is also delayed by 1 frame.
So, playing back an SP or Digi beta tape in VC-13 then blown up through the
DVE and recorded to any digital deck will need a 1 frame audio delay to stay
in sync.
In a nutshell, with the current Rane setting of 4 frames, all audio paths
are in sync.
The only paths to watch out for are these.
From VC-13 to any composite input (Audio delayed 1 frame)
Video through DVE delayed by 1 frame.
Video through the upconverter, delayed by 2 frames.
Please let me know if you notice any lipsync problems from this point on.
Darrell
Stacy Brownrigg, CAS
2005-01-19 14:16:27 UTC
Permalink
Darrell,

I'll loan you my Cameo (which has delays) and Deva 4. Rent another
Deva, and you're set.

BTW : What is the exact delay of not only the Lectro 400's but the
Zaxcom wireless'?

Stacy Brownrigg, CAS
Post by Darrell Henke
I am prepping a show with 13 or 14 RF mics from a rental company with a mix
of 411's and 211's with lavs and a RF hand held. The 24 input Midas mixer
will not have delays.
I have asked Lectro for a mic power supply or preamp with this
feature. Any
Post by Darrell Henke
delay will have to pass phantom anyway. If Lectro doesn't step up, how about
Remote Audio, SD, or PSC?
Please let me know if you notice any lipsync problems from this point on.
Darrell
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